Central Florida Short Sales: Please do NOT commit Fraud To Get A Short Sale Accepted!

Reserved for criminal #3547975

You are right, it ain't worth the stripes clothing.  Thanks for sharing.

HA!  Every page of our contracts have to be initialed.  Are they going to forge the initial on the cover page too???

Good catch. 

BB, I am glad you removed the comment. It is sad that people think they can and should resort to fraud, in any circumstances. Wonder if this person is partial to stripes and bars....

I have to ask this person, would you have done this type of thing 5-6years ago when things were selling? If not it's not OK to justify it now. If you would have done this type of fraud 5-6years ago with the same disregard for the law then you are a life long scumbag.

He did say "Then... with permission of the parties"  so this probably isn't fraud. But, I wouldn't trust this guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the same type of fool that redefines words on the HUD-1 to justify deliberate fraud.

He's to be avoided at all cost!

Bill

You have to pay attention to witch end of the jack ass is doing the talking!

Bill. So are you saying that because the buyer and seller both agreed to submit a fake contract to the lender that it's not fraud? I think what you meant to say was that the agent had both the seller and the buyer commit fraud. Basically the buyer has agreed to pay more for the property than what they are telling the lender. They are creating a false document to trick the lender. I just don't see how this is not fraud.

It sounds like the buyer and seller agreed...but agreed that it was disclosed as fake and still let it go through anyway.

Oh...and why would he hate Realtors?

I maybe dumb, but isn't misrepresentin the facts fraud?

Fraud is fraud. How stupid do you have to be to commit fraud and then post a blog on the World Wide Web annoucing it?

Bryant,  It never ceases to amaze me the things people are willing to do.....it takes a criminal mind to come up this stuff.  I just don't the DNA for it!  Really glad you wrote this post to expose a practice I would not know about otherwise.

Bryant,

Absolutely not!

If everyone agreed that is an offer!If they try to close from the original offer that's fraud!

The unanswered question is what are they planing to do with that first, first page? The guy is a dangerous fool!

If the bank accepts the offer they got a deal at that price, but the buyer is prepaired to pay more if necessary.

Nothing here said they'd tell the bank one price and close at another! That's what you're implying but not saying! We've all made low offers knowing that some people will always counter, that's the advantage of working with a known seller, agent, bank, pick one.

Re-read the quote!It's a strange negotiation, but no where does it mention anything fraudulent. It reminds me of the old codger that ask the young woman "would you sleep with me for a $1,000,000" she says yes. He ask "How about $100?"...  In this case Would you sell your house to me for $200,000? OK how about $180,000? The net to the seller is the same and if the bank counters we already know the buyer will pay up to $200,000!

Bill

""This is what you do. You negotiate the offer with the buyer and the seller and get all parties to sign. Then... with permission of the parties, you rewrite a new front page of the contract with a lower purchase price and send that amount in to the lender with the offer and hardship package. I would make the purchase price about $20,000 lower because they always seem to come back and want at least $15,000 more than the offer that is submitted. This must be their MO. In any case, it worked like a charm. Then... you tell the BPO agent that the offer price is what you sent into Carrington. I hated to resort to these tactics, but Carrington messed with my sellers for over one year. The only bummer is they gave us an approval letter for 20 days because we were getting close to the foreclosure date. I asked for an extension because the buyer was not able to meet the deadline. We needed TWO more days to complete the closing. They came back and reduced our commissions to 3% for both side TOTAL! To top things off, Kirk the SR VP told the closing atty's mitagator that he hates realtors. Go figure."

There may be more,but you didn't quoate it.

Hi BB - It is unethical and probably illegal for the parties to enter into any kind of collusion to take money to which the bank should be entitled.  If the proper price was agreed upon between the buyer and seller, the agent should not wink and make up a different price to fool the bank.  And like Lenn says, about her contracts, the California contract also requires all parties to initial each page.

BB - That is definitely fraud. I surprised someone would post a comment like that.

Wow. . . after committing fraud, the agent had the gonads to complain about a cut in commission. . .

Well said BB.  The concept of negotiation does not include misstatements, misrepresentations or withholding pertinent and material information.

Perhaps this broker was once a mortgage broker who specialized in getting $30,000 a year wage earners "stated income" mortgages of $1,000,000?

Or perhaps this broker read the book on "flipping for profit" and calls one of the "use a trust" gurus his mentor?

Desperate times always bring out the worst - people trying to twist and turn notwithstanding common decent moral behavior - with the justification of "who does it hurt?"  On the other hand, they are just trying to put bread on the table.

Withdrawing the comment was doing this person a favor - by hiding him/her from the lender and having him/her charged with fraud.  On the other hand, by deleting it maybe you are becoming an enabler?

Wow, Richard!

That's coming close to home! I was a mortgage broker/mortgage banker for 23 years, I wrote a book or two or more, one called "Flipping for fun and Profit."

I've nerve put "$30,000 a year wage earners "stated income" mortgages of $1,000,000", but I have put $60,000 a year cocktail waitress with $200,000 in other income in to $500,000 mortgages. I've never advocated buying trust, but I do advocate placing investment properties in separate LLC's owned by a personal trust.

In 40 years none of my clients or students have ever been accused of fraud! In more than 30 annual state and Federal audits I've never had a problem.

May be it's just coincidental that I'm the only dissident!

You're assuming facts not in evidence! re-read what Bryant gave us and point out the fraud, please!

""This is what you do. You negotiate the offer with the buyer and the seller and get all parties to sign. Then... with permission of the parties, you rewrite a new front page of the contract with a lower purchase price and send that amount in to the lender with the offer and hardship package. I would make the purchase price about $20,000 lower because they always seem to come back and want at least $15,000 more than the offer that is submitted. This must be their MO. In any case, it worked like a charm. Then... you tell the BPO agent that the offer price is what you sent into Carrington. I hated to resort to these tactics, but Carrington messed with my sellers for over one year. The only bummer is they gave us an approval letter for 20 days because we were getting close to the foreclosure date. I asked for an extension because the buyer was not able to meet the deadline. We needed TWO more days to complete the closing. They came back and reduced our commissions to 3% for both side TOTAL! To top things off, Kirk the SR VP told the closing atty's mitagator that he hates realtors. Go figure."

I don't like this, it's down right strange, but if there is faurd it's written between the lines. When all agreed to the second first page that became the accepted offer they sent the sellers bank.

Bill

Just for the record! That Mortgage broker had no choice when Joe Paycheck ask for that million dollar loan, if he qualified for the program. You might want to re-read "Fair Lending" before besmirching and slandering mortgage brokers!

Richard, I don't know weather I'm more offended or just plain disappointed in you.

Bill. Read his comment again. The buyer and seller have already agreed the purchase price. Then in order to "trick" the lender the agents suggest that the buyer and the seller rewrite the contract at a lower price and submit that to the lender. That in itself is fraudulent because they are 'tricking" the lender into believing that the contract submitted to the lender is the best they can do. That's a lie. They already have a contract for $20,000 more!

No matter how you try to justify it you are wrong. If it's not fraud then why do it? Why not just submit the real contract and be done with it? What's the point of rewriting the offer for $20,00 less? It's to trick the lender. That's fraud. Even the agent is talking about "resorting to these tactics".

Your comment to Richard is also wrong. Richard used as an example a person making $30,000 who was put into a $1,000,000 mortgage using stated income. Even though stated income was allowed the income still had to be real. You couldn't just make it up. There has never been a loan product on the planet where a person making $30,000 a year qualified for a $1,000,000 mortgage. Has there? Of course not.

He is also talking about the practice of using a trust to step in between the seller and their lender on a short sale. Most of these guys are also committing "evaluation fraud" by deceiving the lender about the true value of the property so they can flip the short sale for a profit. This is a huge issue in Florida and in most cases it's fraud.

So Bill...slow down and read the post. You are trying too hard to be contrarian and it is clouding your thinking. You are wrong.

Bill. This is what the Arms length transaction form has to say about secret agreements. All short sale lenders use this or a variation of.

Wouldn't you think that an existing contract at a higher price is a"hidden term or special understanding"? Of course it is.

I hadn't heard of this little scam before.  Boy, it can land this agent and the sellers into some really hot water. 

Hmmm - I wrote it in sort of a mad way because I see - daily - more than one situation of an unsophisticated low wage earner that was "sold" a dream that shouldn't be.  Once the mortgage adjusted - or often right from the first payment - the borrower could not make a payment on the mortgage.  In my part of Florida it was rampant and many participants have gone to jail for it.  Very few mortgage brokers (and real estate brokers that participated) are guilty - but the example used by Bryant Tutas is the same mindset that the guilty ones had in casting out their net and pulling in gullible and unsophisticated borrowers for outlandish loans (and fantastical fees!).  Just like the newspapers and TV, they don't report the good news - just the bad, which magnifies that part of society's character to the world.  This type of conduct is just the same thing - magnifying the bad.

And did I mention the picture?  I think it is one of your best portraits yet!

Interesting.  What happens tp the original first page which was higher? If the lowered price is submitted is the original first page to be held as a counter offer? 

Bryant,

If everyone agreed that is an offer! "Clouded thinking?"  We have one signd contract as finaly agreeded, not two.

I've read and re-read and re-read your blog, your conclusions while probably correct are simply not supported by what you presented!

You don't show what they intend to do with that first, first page!

"Wouldn't you think that an existing contract at a higher price is a"hidden term or special understanding"? Of course it is."

That amended offer is now the only offer. There is only one set of signatures so there is only one contract, there could be many higher offers, but the only one you present is the accepted one!

This is strange tactic only because the seller is involved. If you were to present an offer to a seller or his agent always known to counter, you'd start low. Once the seller agreed to accept the buyers maximum offer at say $200,000.00, if it was known that his lender always counters at or near $20,000.00 higher it it may well be wise to amened the offer to a lower price. If the original frist page was later used then there could be fraud, but you don't show that.

Both you and Richard are obfuscating, he doesn't state what's illegal he insults some one, then ads : "unsophisticated low wage earner that was "sold" a dream that shouldn't be." So have we, but what's the relevance?  You imply hidden terms or special understandings, but don't show them.

I wouldn't trust this agent because I too read between the lines! But, you haven't supported your conclusion.

 Bill

Just amazing but no surprise at all. I wrote a very detailed article about Short Sale Fraud. I am sure you will find it interesting.

A serious ethical lapse for sure.  Fraud, maybe.  100% unprofessional, absolutely!

When I read the word "rewrite", in my mind I was already running away. Most definitely fraud!

OK...help me out here, why not have a counter offer ready to go in quickly, all legal and tidy? I don't work short sales, so I am a babe here. Hep me, hep me! Is this a time-frame issue 

If it will take too much time or room to explain here, shoot me an email? I get what the seller agent was trying to accomplish,but don't agree with the tactic.

Keep your powder dry...

Whatever way you look at it, its operating in a very grey area of ethical behavior. 

What can I say? Fraud could land me in the cell right next to you and your lovely wife. Why do some people forget to think before they speak or write?

If we are required under Florida Law to adhere to Chapter 501, Part II, F.S. " This law declares that unfair methods of competition, unconsionable acts of practices, and unfair or DECEPTIVE acts or practices in the conduct of any trade or commerce are Unlawful."   There is also some jaz about Selling a Home by "Trick, Scheme or Devise".   Yeah...they broke the Law and were thoughtless enough to post it on a world wide forum.  Sweet. 

it still amazes me that some people are so well---slimy.   Seems like it would be fraud, even if "all the parties agreed" to it, wouldnt the sellers lender be a Party to the transaction? 

I am not going to do something so that I can lose my license just to sell you home,or so that you can buy one- so dont bother asking.   

You were right to delete that comment, because was fraud and if he gets caught, someone maybe spending some time alone behind bars for it.